Spy Meta - Has it changed?

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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Segno on Tue May 27, 2014 11:38 pm

Sqrt(-1) wrote:I'm late to the party, but here's my thoughts.
The unfortunate thing is that the basic spy play, ie the cloak, stab, and die spy is getting pretty predictable. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, but it's not as effective nowadays as it was, say, a year or two ago, and it may be that in another couple of years, opponents will be able to shut down the spy class even more effectively than right now.
However, the gunspy style of play is relatively fresh, and more consistent. I believe that the metagame will slowly shift towards the gunspy style of play.
You shouldn't always be going for the suicide stab Razz
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  SilentNinja on Wed May 28, 2014 1:18 am

Segno wrote:In my opinion I really, really suggest stealthyness. TF2Gentleman has influenced me way more than you could imagine but it's not a bad thing. The way the spy was supposed to be played was stealthy, not being a retard Rambo with a small gun and a fake death.
"small gun". Don´t underestimate spy guns <.<
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Segno on Wed May 28, 2014 5:56 am

I'm not underestimating it I'm just saying it's not as powerful as the other class' weapons.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  SilentNinja on Wed May 28, 2014 2:20 pm

Segno wrote:I'm not underestimating it I'm just saying it's not as powerful as the other class' weapons.
Imo, a good spy can outduel any other class, maybe not a heavy in close combat cus 3HS are to much, but 2 is possible anyway. I hope you know Hei? Smile
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Segno on Wed May 28, 2014 10:44 pm

I have heard of him, only saw his frag movie, "Hei." Not much else to say. Guess I should research him?
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  SilentNinja on Wed May 28, 2014 11:18 pm

Segno wrote:I have heard of him, only saw his frag movie, "Hei." Not much else to say. Guess I should research him?
You wont find more vids of him sadly, anyways, he shows a good example of how to excell at amby vs other classes, also, if you know Lenny/Solid, they play Amby spy only and yeah, it works fine. Just pointing it out Wink
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Sqrt(-1) on Thu May 29, 2014 6:41 pm

SilentNinja wrote:
Segno wrote:I'm not underestimating it I'm just saying it's not as powerful as the other class' weapons.
Imo, a good spy can outduel any other class, maybe not a heavy in close combat cus 3HS are to much, but 2 is possible anyway. I hope you know Hei? Smile
I disagree.
Sniper wins against spy.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  SilentNinja on Thu May 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Sqrt(-1) wrote:
SilentNinja wrote:
Segno wrote:I'm not underestimating it I'm just saying it's not as powerful as the other class' weapons.
Imo, a good spy can outduel any other class, maybe not a heavy in close combat cus 3HS are to much, but 2 is possible anyway. I hope you know Hei? Smile
I disagree.
Sniper wins against spy.
As i was refering to the HS dmg from the Amby, I didn´t even think of sniper. Soz, my bad Razz
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Segno on Thu May 29, 2014 8:09 pm

I am actually training at amby now. The burst damage output is nuts
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  _kayzer_ on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:56 pm

Segno wrote:The way the spy was supposed to be played was stealthy, not being a retard Rambo with a small gun and a fake death.

Everytime someone uses this argument I laugh because how do you know that? You read Robins mind? Where is it said by a oficial source? If its all about being stealthy why do we have a revolver that makes loads of noise as a primary gun?

Spy is not about being stealthy its about seizing the opportunity, with stabs, headshoots, feints, comms, team play, whatsoever
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  PaNissanic on Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:34 am

_kayzer_ wrote:
Segno wrote:The way the spy was supposed to be played was stealthy, not being a retard Rambo with a small gun and a fake death.

Everytime someone uses this argument I laugh because how do you know that? You read Robins mind? Where is it said by a oficial source? If its all about being stealthy why do we have a revolver that makes loads of noise as a primary gun?

Spy is not about being stealthy its about seizing the opportunity, with stabs, headshoots, feints, comms, team play, whatsoever
Good spies can easily adapt to pretty much any situation. If they need to go Revolver Ocelot in order to help to team with some firepower, then that's what they need to do. If there are openings where they can go for some nice clean stabs, then that's what they should do.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Segno on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:45 pm

oh btw silentninja I'm friends with Hei on steam now. .-.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  SilentNinja on Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:04 pm

Segno wrote:oh btw silentninja I'm friends with Hei on steam now. .-.
Awesome! Talked to him yet? Thought he would be to busy/got full friends list cus of all the hype he produced with his video Wink
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  _kayzer_ on Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:24 am

PaNissanic wrote:
_kayzer_ wrote:
Segno wrote:The way the spy was supposed to be played was stealthy, not being a retard Rambo with a small gun and a fake death.

Everytime someone uses this argument I laugh because how do you know that? You read Robins mind? Where is it said by a oficial source? If its all about being stealthy why do we have a revolver that makes loads of noise as a primary gun?

Spy is not about being stealthy its about seizing the opportunity, with stabs, headshoots, feints, comms, team play, whatsoever
Good spies can easily adapt to pretty much any situation. If they need to go Revolver Ocelot in order to help to team with some firepower, then that's what they need to do. If there are openings where they can go for some nice clean stabs, then that's what they should do.

The only gunspies you see going revolver oncelot when they have clean stabs available are retards. One thing is being stealthy, other thing is being retard. JAmes bond is also pretty stealthy until hell breaks loose, at that point he shots everything down Wink
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Isil on Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:26 am

Considering there is a new update that improved invisibility over DR-gunspy, do you think meta would change for the next season ? Or do you think gunspy would be the best option still ?
Imo with the new big eaner (or kunai why not), we may see traditionals spies come back to the scene at high level. It would kind of refreshing.

What's yours opinions ?
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Toast on Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:30 pm

The update seems like a missed opportunity. Valve almost made a class where every weapon given to the class was viable, and where there wasn't one, and only one way to play effectively. They buff the already balanced, traditional spy style, and nerf the gun spy style, even though they were both in general equally viable.  That, and then they made the enforcer even more dumb.

The invis/CnD buff seems so unnessecary. Incorporating a mini-dr into an already incredibly useful watch and then nerfing the dead ringer itself was dumb. It doesn't even make for much diversity, since most spies play knife spy anyway. And then of the spies that remain, so incredibly few of them actual make it worthwhile doing. Right now, of people who are active, theres (or were) HARD, Polar, Villdjack, inso, solid and probably Carl. That's literally it. Now they have suddenly decided that dead ringer was overpowered, and proceed to nerf it for no real reason. The way they did do it also seems flawed to me. They seem to want the dead ringer to be less spammy, and more about actually convincing, being more "stealthy" and so on. But because of the massive damage absorption nerf, you can't really get close to people, which is where the only dead ringer feigns are bought anyway. I don't really understand what they wanted to achieve with the nerf, other than making more players play invis/CnD, which is a flawed argument to begin with, because both styles, as stated above, are generally equally viable.

The Big earner definitely seems viable now, which is great, as it has been absolutely useless since its release. Kunai has also become viable, though only in lower level play, unfortunately. In everything above high/EUplat, it's just not reliable enough. The massive HP gain isn't really that useful to be honest, but could probably somehow be exploited in lower divisions, where things aren't as organized and as well thought out.

Glad they didn't change the revolvers too much though. Very Happy
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  a Woolen Sleevelet on Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:05 pm

Toast wrote:The update seems like a missed opportunity. Valve almost made a class where every weapon given to the class was viable, and where there wasn't one, and only one way to play effectively. They buff the already balanced, traditional spy style, and nerf the gun spy style, even though they were both in general equally viable.  That, and then they made the enforcer even more dumb.

The invis/CnD buff seems so unnessecary. Incorporating a mini-dr into an already incredibly useful watch and then nerfing the dead ringer itself was dumb. It doesn't even make for much diversity, since most spies play knife spy anyway. And then of the spies that remain, so incredibly few of them actual make it worthwhile doing. Right now, of people who are active, theres (or were) HARD, Polar, Villdjack, inso, solid and probably Carl. That's literally it. Now they have suddenly decided that dead ringer was overpowered, and proceed to nerf it for no real reason. The way they did do it also seems flawed to me. They seem to want the dead ringer to be less spammy, and more about actually convincing, being more "stealthy" and so on. But because of the massive damage absorption nerf, you can't really get close to people, which is where the only dead ringer feigns are bought anyway. I don't really understand what they wanted to achieve with the nerf, other than making more players play invis/CnD, which is a flawed argument to begin with, because both styles, as stated above, are generally equally viable.

The Big earner definitely seems viable now, which is great, as it has been absolutely useless since its release. Kunai has also become viable, though only in lower level play, unfortunately. In everything above high/EUplat, it's just not reliable enough. The massive HP gain isn't really that useful to be honest, but could probably somehow be exploited in lower divisions, where things aren't as organized and as well thought out.

Glad they didn't change the revolvers too much though. Very Happy

Food for thought:

what if they added a crusader's crossbow style element to the dr?
the further away the better the damage reduction
the closer the shitter
would kind of enable gunspy to continue while still preventing people from having fun
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Isil on Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Toast wrote:. They buff the already balanced, traditional spy style, and nerf the gun spy style, even though they were both in general equally viable.  
...
It doesn't even make for much diversity, since most spies play knife spy anyway
I have to disagree with you. Be honest with yourself Wink  . You know like me there are more gunspy in prem than invis spies. Because it's more effective. I calculated an estimation for season 8 and 7 (thanks to logs in official and table made by CeeJaey) : 75% gunspy or little less, considering that some are hybrid.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Carlotso25 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:58 pm

Agreeing with Isil too. I saw more DR Gunning in the last couple of seasons in Prem than traditional Spying. Knife Spies are more common in America if anything, and their buff is hardly an impact.

Spy really hasn't changed in HL. I still think it will function the same as it always will. Invis and C&D seem like more appealing options (even though they really haven't changed, but that's fine), and Gunspies will still do fine with DR providing they don't play like they have 1000 health. You still have like 250 health, it just means you have to actually be smart about which fights you take and how you'll take em.

Lakeside will play the exact same for Spies as it always will. Gunspies will still do their thing, probably even better now than they have the speed boost. DR was always about always having the charge ready. But now instead of using it to fight, you're using it to get to the next ammo pack and constantly changing your positions. Though on the whole it is a nerf, in a certain way the DR is stronger, and you can use that if you are a good player.

I promise you, the DR nerf really is negligible. You can still play gunspy, but you just have to admit you can die now. That's it. If you intend to keep being upset with it, then tough shit, deal with it Cool

The real weapon of intrigue for changing up Spy is the Big Earner. Now THAT is a weapon that could change plastyles.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Isil on Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:39 pm

I really hope that Big eaner could change meta in high div and we could see more invis spy.
Atm invis are taunted and called "suicidal spies". Perhaps, they won't be anymore..
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  a Woolen Sleevelet on Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:45 pm

Carlotso25 wrote:Agreeing with Isil too. I saw more DR Gunning in the last couple of seasons in Prem than traditional Spying. Knife Spies are more common in America if anything, and their buff is hardly an impact.

Spy really hasn't changed in HL. I still think it will function the same as it always will. Invis and C&D seem like more appealing options (even though they really haven't changed, but that's fine), and Gunspies will still do fine with DR providing they don't play like they have 1000 health. You still have like 250 health, it just means you have to actually be smart about which fights you take and how you'll take em.

Lakeside will play the exact same for Spies as it always will. Gunspies will still do their thing, probably even better now than they have the speed boost. DR was always about always having the charge ready. But now instead of using it to fight, you're using it to get to the next ammo pack and constantly changing your positions. Though on the whole it is a nerf, in a certain way the DR is stronger, and you can use that if you are a good player.

I promise you, the DR nerf really is negligible. You can still play gunspy, but you just have to admit you can die now. That's it. If you intend to keep being upset with it, then tough shit, deal with it Cool

The real weapon of intrigue for changing up Spy is the Big Earner. Now THAT is a weapon that could change plastyles.

Valve clearly buffing America because they can never win the national cup
Accidently buff grenjabob too

we're at a stalemate here


also the new kunai is amazing as all shit, you can turn that burning to death 12hp engineer to a free 75hp health pack, it's insane.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Carlotso25 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:09 pm

I still don't think Kunai will see play outside low level comp, just because having 125 health is preferable over having 70 and maybe having more.

In pubs though, jesus christ I love it.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  a Woolen Sleevelet on Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:25 pm

i really want it to be a thing, it's so much bloody fun.

even if the meta is "spawncamp / wait outside the archway near spawn on warmtic for the engineer/ soldier to just flummox by to get the first buff then go around having fun on 145 for a bit"

just please let it be a thing
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  Toast on Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:08 am

@Isil

That doesn't make sense to me. In High there was definitely mostly knife spies, and in prem in S8 I see somewhat the same thing. There were 10 spies in prem last season, that actually played. Looking away from the deviations of hybrid spies, I hope we can agree that the following spies play gun spy relatively consistently; Khazul, Inso, Villdjack, Polar. That leaves Grenja, P1nky, Kostil, Cherie, Joe and Deox.

(6/10)*100% = 60 % of spies being knife spies. This percentage increases if we count the mercs, and things like polar playing invis spy in more important matches like Highpander/Premtech if I remember correctly.

When comparing Grenja and inso, who are through lengthy discussion with a lot of spy main biasness, at the very top of their respective playstyles, and have very similar stats. eg. Roughly the same amount of kills, med picks etc.  

@Carl

If the buff hardly does anything, I don't understand what there is to achieve by doing what they did. The option was perfectly viable, hence its popular use. The only thing it seems to achieve is spies getting out of retarded places, just like the DR before. An example: Because the damage resist on invis is instant, you can basically tank a quickscope from a sniper without the need to care, because you only take 120. Another is the new Invis/Big Earner. Because of the flawed redesign of the DR, it's just so much more luck-based than before. You can't engage a good player with the new dr, you just have to pussy out. You move to ammo kit number 194, proceed to try and headshot the medic, scout finds you and you immediately feign unconvincingly and go to ammo kit number 195. Completely contradicts its purpose, and the entire idea of feigning. It also ends up being a complete waste of time, because you essentially run around picking up ammo kits the whole game, and then occasionally coming with a med/flank pick.

Luckily for me, gunspy is still viable. Now it just requires actual aim, which so few seem to have anyway. Though I think that gunspies are going to get rarer, and effective ones even rarer.

@WoolenStevelet

Unfortunately, kunai will never be viable in comp. It's just fundamentally not built for it. In pubs it's almost broken though lol.
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Re: Spy Meta - Has it changed?

Post  a Woolen Sleevelet on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:17 am

It's totally viable in low divisions though, I merced for my friend in mid a couple of weeks ago on 500 ping and had a fantastic time.
http://logs.tf/900798?highlight=76561198051476520
never even played glassworks before lol

Just probably not viable against people with actual spy sense, no intelligent person would ever run dr/kunai combo
it's literally spitting on poor tobias

shit i need to add tobias on steam and see if he's woken up from the shock inspired coma from the kunai being buffed so much
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